Friday, May 20, 2011

Where did this come from?

Again, over at Catholic Answers we find the following under the Social Group forum, in the "Let's Empty Purgatory" thread...

"Jesus said if we pray this prayer 1,000 souls from purgatory are released: "Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the masses said throughout the world today, for all the souls in Purgatory, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen."

Following this we have Catholics literally typing in this prayer. At this writing, there are 131 pages in this thread with an average of 9 to 10 prayers posted per page. A rough calculation would give us an average of 1,179,000 to 1,310,000 souls already freed through the efforts of these members. And if each of the members posted this prayer, at least, 10 times, they will be putting quite a serious dent on purgatory.

Purgatory aside (anyone who reads this thread KNOWS that purgatory is but a fable to me), can someone kindly point me to where Jesus made this promise? Seems to me that if Jesus did say it and valid support is provided, the purgatory debates are fini. Purgatory does exist!

But He really didn't say it, did He. So why say that He did?


kuyamanny said...

three posts in two days, the Churchmouse is on a roll!

Churchmouse said...

Inspiration has no limits :-)

Peace to you and your family, Manny.

God bless,

Zarnacy said...

You know, it is possible to accept that the idea of prayer for the dead has some value, even the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, yet not approach it in such a mechanistic manner (say this prayer X times, release Y souls from purgatory).

In fact, official Catholic teaching nowadays, discourages the emphasis of putting a quantity on the effects of prayer for the dead, despite the historic tendencies in that direction. OK, some Catholics will still do so even when the Vatican has discouraged it, there is this saying "more Catholic than the Pope", and I think that may well describe the people on that thread.

Churchmouse said...

Personally, as I stated in the thread, I don't see the value of prayer for the dead, when one believes in only what Scripture teaches and what history attests to. I understand that there are some, such as on this CA thread, who take it to extremes, and I understand that it may not be the norm, but it would be good if one would point out the official Catholic teaching to those on the thread.


Little Shepherd Girl said...

First point: Although the
word Purgatory does not appear anywhere in Scripture, the specific word “trinity” also does not appear in Scripture but is yet a core belief of ALL Christian
denominations. Second point: Catholics can prove from Scripture AND oral/teaching Sacred Tradition from the time of Christ, that "Purgatory" or a place of "purging or expiating for sin" is a constant dogmatic teaching, not a man made one, just as we can with the trinity.
The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.” And there is more in Scripture, so much more in fact, that one would have to dispense all Scripture as "fable" in order to ignore this intrinsic teaching.
In the New Testament
In Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”

Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.
Matthew 12:32 says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Here Jesus speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. We know that in Hell there is no liberation and in Heaven nothing imperfect can enter it as we see in the next part. Sin is not forgiven when a soul reaches its final destination because in heaven there is no need for forgiveness of sin and in hell the choice to go there is already made.
Revelation 21:27: “...but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text around it for context).
1 Corinthians 3:11-15: The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. 12 But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, 13 and each man’s workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man’s workmanship. 14 He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; 15 if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire.[2]
The Bible clearly implies a place for an intermediate state of purification after we die in the many passages which tell that God will reward or punish according to a person's life. Making fun of the word Purgatory (which simple means "place of purgation") because "Jesus didn't use that specific word" simply means you pick and choose Scripture to your own denominational liking, when in fact you wouldn't have ANY Scripture or know ANYTHING Jesus said if the Catholic Church hadn't said by her authority that He said it.

Churchmouse said...

I really got to keep up with this blog.

Little Shepherd Girl, maybe you should look around my blog. Everything you mentioned, which are common arguments, including the "purgatory" verses, have been refuted in some form on this blog.

Little Shepherd Girl said...

Churchmouse, "in some form" is the problem. Your blog is filled with inaccuracies, half truths and lies about what Catholicism actually teaches, and you should take a look at simple sites like Catholic Answers to find refutations of all of your "refutations". First of all, there is no "Catholic Teaching" that X number of prayers will release X number of souls. These are just devotions based on private revelation. Private revelation has no bearing on what Catholics have to believe to be Catholic, unlike the countless illogical and contradictory private interpretations of the bible which form the basis of Protestant theology. Bible Alone theory no where exists in the bible, in fact is refuted in the bible, which refers to One Faith and holding fast to the Traditions passed on and taught by word of mouth. One would think reality would impose the absurdity of the claim that Bible Alone religions could be the Church instituted by Jesus Christ, but I guess some mice can't find their way out of their own blog...or trap.

Little Shepherd Girl said...

And when I say, refer to simple sites like Catholic Answers, I do not mean pull inaccurate things from private individuals on the forums and blogs, like your blog is filled with, this thread being one of them, but go to the apologist's answers on the official site. Any one of your blog "followers" can do the most basic search to refute every single anti Catholic claim on this entire blog. There is no reason for false accusations, ignorance and "guessing" what Church Christ instituted for individuals capable of using their own reason.

Churchmouse said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Churchmouse said...

Wow, I simply have to keep up with this blog!

Little Shepherd Girl:

If I were a betting man, I would bet that you didn't read anything on my blog. I am confident that your original arguments have been thoroughly refuted. Btw, I was a member of the Catholic Answers forums and have had honest Catholics agree with me. I was eventually banned from the forums, but I received letters of support from other Catholics who thought I was banned unfairly. As to refutations, unless you can point me to refutations of any of my arguments, the above will be regarded as rhetoric.

And no one said there was such a Catholic teaching that X number of prayers will release X number of souls. You're building a straw man.

You say that it’s okay for a Catholic to have a “private revelation” because it has no bearing on what Catholics have to believe to be Catholic, yet do not apply the same principle to Protestants. We agree on the essentials of salvation, remember? Yet, you shrug it off as “illogical and contradictory.” See the double standard?

Regarding, Sola Scriptura, okay, we'll play it this way. Point me to the “Traditions” I must believe to be saved and the Apostle who taught the Tradition? Also, please provide the support to back up your claim. I believe that when Paul spoke of “tradition” he was speaking of that which was written and that which hadn’t been written at that time. How did I come to this conclusion? Because I haven’t seen any evidence of any other type of tradition. But if you can provide it, please do so. I can be corrected and I’m listening. Until then, I remain a Sola Scripturist.

Regarding the church Christ instituted, you still labor on a straw man, no one made the claimed that “Bible Alone religions” are the church instituted by Christ, but neither did Christ say that the Roman Catholic church is that institution either. He only said that He would build His church. You really seem to be following the script that so many are following, both in argument and in belief. Again, if you can’t provide any solid evidence to the contrary, it all becomes rhetoric.

As far as Catholic Answers and such sites go, I’ve looked for refutations and found nothing satisfactory. Have you? Again, I would encourage you to read my entries on any given subject and, if you would kindly point me to a refutation from any given Catholic apologist, I would greatly appreciate it. I haven’t found any, but if you claim there is, the ball is in your court.

“Anti Catholic”??? Even that label is refuted on my blog. Disagreeing with Catholic distinctives doesn't make one an anti-Catholic. Again, I must note that your comments are peppered with the same rhetoric I’ve heard coming from those who really don’t know what they are talking about. I admire your emotionalism, but you can prove me wrong by simply reading anything I’ve stated on my blog and pointing me to its refutation. Again, the ball is in your court. If you can’t find any such refutation, just say so. I won’t hold it against you, but please be honest.

On another note, I must mention that your usage of "Bible Alone" or Bible Alone religions is deceptive and very much a straw man. No Protestant would say that everything he/she believes is based on the "Bible Alone", but only that which pertains to salvation. The Bible is the utmost authority over any theology or tradition, but all Protestants agree that the Bible is very clear on the issue of salvation and that it is by grace through faith alone.

Who links to my website?