tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23413184.post115230975717238804..comments2023-04-01T09:39:03.316-05:00Comments on A Churchmouse's Musings: Purging purgatory from 2 MaccabeesChurchmousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13521990026485330450noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23413184.post-53425622214084245822012-07-15T18:33:48.746-05:002012-07-15T18:33:48.746-05:00The problem is that the idea that Mary is sinless ...The problem is that the idea that Mary is sinless is not biblical in the bible I believe it is Luke Mary says that she rejoices in God her savior and if you are sinless you do not need a savior and I think in Romans it says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And has for your example of the criminal Jesus told the thief on the cross TODAY you wil be with me in paradise and you would expect a thief to spend time in purgatory if it existed.Monkey Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15330334265030218955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23413184.post-64230950546383076082011-07-15T13:48:25.545-05:002011-07-15T13:48:25.545-05:00[Quote from Joe:] "Surly there must be mercy ...[Quote from Joe:] "Surly there must be mercy for even so twisted a soul. But that soul cannot expect to be immediately received into Gods presence in same fashion as Mary after a life so full of egregious sin." [/quote]<br /><br />Actually, in Acts 10:34, Peter makes mention that "God is not a respecter of persons". In other words, He does not show favortism. All who sincerly repent are forgiven and granted the same righteousness (right standing with God) as the next sinner. <br /><br />For all have sinned and fallen short and it does not matter if a small rule or large one is violated. If any of God's commandments are violated then all of them are violated. That means *all* of us are just as guilty as the one you claim has "egregious sin" attached to him. That is why we are under Grace, not the Law. Romans 3:10, "There are none good, no not one." Sin is sin. It doesn't matter to God what results that sin produced, only that it is present. <br /><br />We are the ones that attach value-judgements to sin. That "this" sin is much more severe that "that" sin. I'm reminded of the Pharisee that prayed to God saying: "Thank you God, i'm not like other people". He was also referring to a nearby tax collector who could not even raise his head when praying to God. <br /><br />If you feel i'm being judgemental, have a look at 1 Corinthians 5:12-13.Soloman's Fathernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23413184.post-21164787989695524162011-06-03T21:09:28.874-05:002011-06-03T21:09:28.874-05:00Churchmouse, I see two separate Catholic ideas her...Churchmouse, I see two separate Catholic ideas here: (1) Praying for the dead (2) Purgatory as a specific reason to pray for the dead. Your argument is that the text does not imply (2); but leaving (2) aside, it explicitly states (1), which is a position Protestants reject, no?<br /><br />A Catholic believes it is useful to pray for the dead. Purgatory is used to explain that usefulness; but maybe, even if there is no purgatory, it is still useful in some other way? Whereas, Protestants reject all prayers for the dead, correct?<br /><br />A person could accept 2Maccabees as a canonical, inspired, authoritative part of the Bible (the Catholic position), and accept on that basis prayers for the dead (again, the Catholic position), without necessarily endorsing purgatory, since you are right that this text does not teach the Catholic doctrine of purgatory specifically, just maybe one of the several elements that went into it?Zachary W. Martinezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08741313866132322095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23413184.post-44664954356194948262010-02-03T16:06:50.946-06:002010-02-03T16:06:50.946-06:00Amiable dispatch and this mail helped me alot in m...Amiable dispatch and this mail helped me alot in my college assignement. Thank you for your information.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23413184.post-15949763931862303942009-11-23T11:04:04.343-06:002009-11-23T11:04:04.343-06:00Hi Joe,
Considering the length of time that has p...Hi Joe,<br /><br />Considering the length of time that has past, I responded to you via a blog entry.<br /><br />Peace,<br />RayChurchmousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13521990026485330450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23413184.post-39050940882252116342009-08-23T03:06:36.882-05:002009-08-23T03:06:36.882-05:00Before addressing the dogma of purgatory I must co...Before addressing the dogma of purgatory I must correct an error in your understanding of Catholicism. You claim that the statement below is Catholic teaching;<br /><br />“Those who die in a state of mortal sin cannot be prayed for. They are lost.”<br /><br />Whose soul would we pray for if not for that of a loved one who died in a state of mortal sin. No true Catholic would presume to know the disposition of anyone’s immortal soul nor believe that any soul is beyond the infinite mercy of The Lord. <br /><br />I would challenge your disbelief in purgatory in two ways, both in the case of the scripture you mention and using general logic. I would start with a definition of purgatory. Purgatory describes the state of soul that has not been damned but that requires purification before being worthy of the presence of God. <br /><br />If the fallen comrades in 2 Macabbees had been judged at the moment if death, there would be no point in praying for them or offering sacrifices for them. If they are saints in the presence of The Lord, they require no sacrifice. If they are damned, there is no reason to sacrifice for them. The text clearly suggests a third state where prayers and sacrifice would be of use.<br /><br />I would also ask you consider how God (who is the source of our understanding of justice) could not allow for a purgatorial state. Take 2 cases; <br /><br />1. The Blessed Virgin Mary who was without sin, was perfectly obedient to God, and mother to the Jesus.<br /><br />2. A pedophile and murderer (who rapes, torments, steals innocence, destroys families and kills children) who, in his last hours of life repents for his sins and accepts Jesus. <br /><br />Surly there must be mercy for even so twisted a soul. But that soul cannot expect to be immediately received into Gods presence in same fashion as Mary after a life so full of egregious sin.<br /><br />Just couple of points to consider.....<br /><br /><br />You may also want to look at;<br /><br />1 Corinthians 3:11-15<br />Luke 12:58-59Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09082919345991213469noreply@blogger.com