Over at youtube, a poster by the name of "Kumtekmeon" replied on the issue of homosexuality and the Bible. This was after I responded to "dreamequality", a gay man who deleted his first channel only to resurrect it with, yet, another one. "dreamequality" persists in his twisting of Scripture and in his attempts to legitimize homosexuality via the Bible. Considering that Scripture IS VERY clear in its condemnation of homosexuality, I responded. Yet, Kumtekmeon reiterates the very same novel arguments, by which it seems he is only trying to convince himself.Kumtekmeon's words in blue, mine's in black...
You saying that the law against homosexuality (which NEVER existed) still reamins in the NT yet you cannot show me where Jesus at anytime uphold such a law! Saying something DOES NOT make it true WITHOUT FACTS! As said before the bible does not condemn homosexuality..
Never existed??? From the sin of Sodom (Genesis 19) all the way to Christ’s reiteration of who marries under the creation order (Matthew 19:4-6), you have nothing but a condemnation of homosexual perversion. Furthermore, regardless of how evil men attempt to twist them, the Scriptures are clear in that men are not to lay with men as they do with women (Lev.18:22, 20:13). Now, I have heard many homosexuals attempt to bypass what Scripture clearly states by claiming that Jesus never said anything against homosexuality. In other words if Christ didn’t “verbally” state it in the New Testament then there's nothing wrong with it. That’s fallacious at best. Christ wasn’t exhaustive during His earthly ministry. He didn’t say something about everything. Yet, we do know that He always appealed to the Old Testament Scriptures as the Law of God. Furthermore, we also know from 2 Timothy 3:16 that ALL Scripture is God-breathed (the Greek word is “theopneustos”, meaning that it finds its origin directly from the mouth of God), thus ALL Scripture (Old and New Testament) is spoken by God. God spoke through men, they being the vessels used to convey what what He breathed out (2 Peter 1:20). The prophets didn’t write what they “interpreted” from God, but were moved by the Holy Spirit to write what God had said. Now, take this to its conclusion:
Never existed??? From the sin of Sodom (Genesis 19) all the way to Christ’s reiteration of who marries under the creation order (Matthew 19:4-6), you have nothing but a condemnation of homosexual perversion. Furthermore, regardless of how evil men attempt to twist them, the Scriptures are clear in that men are not to lay with men as they do with women (Lev.18:22, 20:13). Now, I have heard many homosexuals attempt to bypass what Scripture clearly states by claiming that Jesus never said anything against homosexuality. In other words if Christ didn’t “verbally” state it in the New Testament then there's nothing wrong with it. That’s fallacious at best. Christ wasn’t exhaustive during His earthly ministry. He didn’t say something about everything. Yet, we do know that He always appealed to the Old Testament Scriptures as the Law of God. Furthermore, we also know from 2 Timothy 3:16 that ALL Scripture is God-breathed (the Greek word is “theopneustos”, meaning that it finds its origin directly from the mouth of God), thus ALL Scripture (Old and New Testament) is spoken by God. God spoke through men, they being the vessels used to convey what what He breathed out (2 Peter 1:20). The prophets didn’t write what they “interpreted” from God, but were moved by the Holy Spirit to write what God had said. Now, take this to its conclusion:
1. Jesus is God
2. God spoke through men who, in turn, wrote what God spoke (Scriptures)
3. God condemned homosexuality in various verses (transitioning from the Old Testament—Gen. 19; Lev. 18:22, 20:13—over to the New Testament—Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9).
4. Thus, Jesus, who is God, condemns homosexuality.
Of course, this is built on the premise that Jesus is God. If you don’t believe He is than I guess I really can’t help you. Yet, you appealed to Christ as the authority. Which is it?
What you've been taught to be homosexuality IS NOT dealing with homosexuality
Rather, what YOU’VE been taught (by those who which to legitimize this perversion) is not true. Historically, God’s people (the Jews and the early church) understood that it was homosexuality that God speaks of within the Scriptures. The interpretations you’ve accepted are novel at best, attempted by men who seek to justify their sin.
I hope you know that by accepting Leviticus 18 to be speaking to homosexuality, that you are in turn labeling God BIASED and CONTRARY! This is so because what reason is given as to why God then DID NOT condemn lesbianism. I know you love to point to Romans 1, BUT that's centuries after.
Again, ALL Scripture (Old and New Testament) is inspired by God. Whether it is Leviticus or Romans, it ALL comes from God. To claim that it is men that Leviticus speaks of (at the exclusion of women) is arguing semantics. Again, the Jews always understood this to be perversion and against God’s law. This finds its logical conclusion in Romans 1, where it points out what the Jews (and now the Gentiles) have always understood— that regardless of homosexuality or lesbianism—it remains WRONG.
Also You are saying God did not care about homosexuality among the other nations except the Jews.
What I said that God’s laws were meant to keep a people (Israel) separate from the rest of the world and consecrated unto Him. Salvation belonged to the Jews and they were to be a light to the world. Homosexuality?? Eveyone else was a pagan and these perversions were rampant. Of course, some of these laws have changed in this age of grace, but the condemnation against homosexuality remains.
You have got yourself in a pickle as in Acts Peter declared NOT to put the YOKE around the gentiles neck!
LOL! Where did Peter say that and what has this to do within the context of homosexuality? Are you saying that sin cannot be clarified for fear that it would become a “yoke”??? Are you serious?
In relation to the By-Laws in Leviticus 18, IF you read the entire passage you will see that those laws came about as a DIRECT result of customs and practices the Israelites picked up in Egypt and Canaan, which includes, men sleeping with men AS WITH women.
Firstly, these weren’t “by-laws” but LAWS. Secondly, whether it was a result of “customs and practices” or not, is pointless, considering that it remains a detestable act to God. That’s the point and, to your behest, you are making it for me. Lastly, I sense that you are attempting to draw a parallel between a man who lies with a man versus a man who lies with men and women. Are you saying that bisexuals are what God speaks of here and not pure homosexuals? What is the “abomination” being spoken of here? I think that a cursory reading of the verses shows that homosexuality, in any form, is what is being spoken of here. Why? Because of God’s created order—men and women—and His intent for us (Genesis 2:24-25, which again is reiterated BY CHRIST in Matthew 19:4-6). This is why homosexuality is an abomination to Him and a perversion of His divine order.
Am I to believe homosexuality is a learnt behavior? Are you saying that religious boy back in 1919 in Virginia was trained by his Baptist parents on how to be gay?
Not at all! Is adultery “learnt behavior”? Is stealing “learnt behavior”? It all boils down to the depraved nature of man. Apart from God we are ALL condemned because of sin. We all struggle with sin, some our entire lives, but we consecrate our lives to Him and allow Him to work within us, shunning sin at all cost. Our wills bound by His grace. It all goes to what Paul stated concerning the Potter (God) and the clay pots (men). Are we going to ask God why He made us the way we are? Do we have the right? Have you read Romans 9? God does as He wills and for His purpose. We are at His mercy.
It is not a crime to apply common sense to your logics.
Who said it is my “logics” [sic]? I simply read Scripture and deduce that man is sinful and capable of anything. What makes it worse is when men take God’s Holy Word and attempt to justify their sinful nature. Woe to those who do so. Just as you said, it isn't a crime to apply common Scriptural sense to your logic.
Let me show you that I DO understand scriptures. At NO TIME God condoned sex with animals, this is so because animals are of a DIFFERENT FLESH!
I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say here or how you deduce that “different flesh” is what God means by all this. If I use your line of logic, I can easily say that God doesn’t condone “male on male” sex because they are of the SAME GENDER. I contend that you really don’t know Scripture and are interpreting it at a whim, as you clearly show with the statement above. Again, the prohibitions found in the verses are homosexuality, incest, and bestiality. You would decry incest and bestiality even today, why not homosexuality? Selectivity doesn’t trump truth.
God did not show any objection to Abraham marrying his half sister Sarah, it was in Moses time such a law came into being.
As you stated, this was BEFORE the law and is clearly delineated in Scripture. After all, where did the wives of Adam and Eve’s sons come from? God’s purpose allowed for this at one time, but changed afterward. However, looking at the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, God clearly detested this sin even BEFORE the Law came into place.
As you so rightly said in OT God separated Israel from the gentiles BUT this was a failure which is why Jesus had was to come with a new covenant.
BUT Christ reiterates God’s order (again Matthew 19:4-6) and the New Testament (again, which comes from the mouth of God) condemns homosexuality. Thus, the new covenant doesn’t legitimize the homosexual act but condemns it. You are without an excuse, even in the new covenant.
Homosexuality WAS NEVER addressed in the OT you need to prove that!
2. God spoke through men who, in turn, wrote what God spoke (Scriptures)
3. God condemned homosexuality in various verses (transitioning from the Old Testament—Gen. 19; Lev. 18:22, 20:13—over to the New Testament—Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9).
4. Thus, Jesus, who is God, condemns homosexuality.
Of course, this is built on the premise that Jesus is God. If you don’t believe He is than I guess I really can’t help you. Yet, you appealed to Christ as the authority. Which is it?
What you've been taught to be homosexuality IS NOT dealing with homosexuality
Rather, what YOU’VE been taught (by those who which to legitimize this perversion) is not true. Historically, God’s people (the Jews and the early church) understood that it was homosexuality that God speaks of within the Scriptures. The interpretations you’ve accepted are novel at best, attempted by men who seek to justify their sin.
I hope you know that by accepting Leviticus 18 to be speaking to homosexuality, that you are in turn labeling God BIASED and CONTRARY! This is so because what reason is given as to why God then DID NOT condemn lesbianism. I know you love to point to Romans 1, BUT that's centuries after.
Again, ALL Scripture (Old and New Testament) is inspired by God. Whether it is Leviticus or Romans, it ALL comes from God. To claim that it is men that Leviticus speaks of (at the exclusion of women) is arguing semantics. Again, the Jews always understood this to be perversion and against God’s law. This finds its logical conclusion in Romans 1, where it points out what the Jews (and now the Gentiles) have always understood— that regardless of homosexuality or lesbianism—it remains WRONG.
Also You are saying God did not care about homosexuality among the other nations except the Jews.
What I said that God’s laws were meant to keep a people (Israel) separate from the rest of the world and consecrated unto Him. Salvation belonged to the Jews and they were to be a light to the world. Homosexuality?? Eveyone else was a pagan and these perversions were rampant. Of course, some of these laws have changed in this age of grace, but the condemnation against homosexuality remains.
You have got yourself in a pickle as in Acts Peter declared NOT to put the YOKE around the gentiles neck!
LOL! Where did Peter say that and what has this to do within the context of homosexuality? Are you saying that sin cannot be clarified for fear that it would become a “yoke”??? Are you serious?
In relation to the By-Laws in Leviticus 18, IF you read the entire passage you will see that those laws came about as a DIRECT result of customs and practices the Israelites picked up in Egypt and Canaan, which includes, men sleeping with men AS WITH women.
Firstly, these weren’t “by-laws” but LAWS. Secondly, whether it was a result of “customs and practices” or not, is pointless, considering that it remains a detestable act to God. That’s the point and, to your behest, you are making it for me. Lastly, I sense that you are attempting to draw a parallel between a man who lies with a man versus a man who lies with men and women. Are you saying that bisexuals are what God speaks of here and not pure homosexuals? What is the “abomination” being spoken of here? I think that a cursory reading of the verses shows that homosexuality, in any form, is what is being spoken of here. Why? Because of God’s created order—men and women—and His intent for us (Genesis 2:24-25, which again is reiterated BY CHRIST in Matthew 19:4-6). This is why homosexuality is an abomination to Him and a perversion of His divine order.
Am I to believe homosexuality is a learnt behavior? Are you saying that religious boy back in 1919 in Virginia was trained by his Baptist parents on how to be gay?
Not at all! Is adultery “learnt behavior”? Is stealing “learnt behavior”? It all boils down to the depraved nature of man. Apart from God we are ALL condemned because of sin. We all struggle with sin, some our entire lives, but we consecrate our lives to Him and allow Him to work within us, shunning sin at all cost. Our wills bound by His grace. It all goes to what Paul stated concerning the Potter (God) and the clay pots (men). Are we going to ask God why He made us the way we are? Do we have the right? Have you read Romans 9? God does as He wills and for His purpose. We are at His mercy.
It is not a crime to apply common sense to your logics.
Who said it is my “logics” [sic]? I simply read Scripture and deduce that man is sinful and capable of anything. What makes it worse is when men take God’s Holy Word and attempt to justify their sinful nature. Woe to those who do so. Just as you said, it isn't a crime to apply common Scriptural sense to your logic.
Let me show you that I DO understand scriptures. At NO TIME God condoned sex with animals, this is so because animals are of a DIFFERENT FLESH!
I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say here or how you deduce that “different flesh” is what God means by all this. If I use your line of logic, I can easily say that God doesn’t condone “male on male” sex because they are of the SAME GENDER. I contend that you really don’t know Scripture and are interpreting it at a whim, as you clearly show with the statement above. Again, the prohibitions found in the verses are homosexuality, incest, and bestiality. You would decry incest and bestiality even today, why not homosexuality? Selectivity doesn’t trump truth.
God did not show any objection to Abraham marrying his half sister Sarah, it was in Moses time such a law came into being.
As you stated, this was BEFORE the law and is clearly delineated in Scripture. After all, where did the wives of Adam and Eve’s sons come from? God’s purpose allowed for this at one time, but changed afterward. However, looking at the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, God clearly detested this sin even BEFORE the Law came into place.
As you so rightly said in OT God separated Israel from the gentiles BUT this was a failure which is why Jesus had was to come with a new covenant.
BUT Christ reiterates God’s order (again Matthew 19:4-6) and the New Testament (again, which comes from the mouth of God) condemns homosexuality. Thus, the new covenant doesn’t legitimize the homosexual act but condemns it. You are without an excuse, even in the new covenant.
Homosexuality WAS NEVER addressed in the OT you need to prove that!
I don’t know how clear it has to be for you. The verses that I have cited (add 1 Timothy 1:8-10 into the mix as well) are a condemnation of homosexuality. No amount of eisegesis is going to change this sin into an acceptable practice. Furthermore, careful exegesis of Scripture, such as when employing Jude 1:7 and Ezekiel 16:49-50 (not merely vs. 49 as many gay-advocates love to quote) add to a serious condemnation of homosexuality. Furthermore, the historical understanding of these verses (the early Jews and the early church) goes against you as well. If you cannot see it, that’s not my problem, but my guess is that you know exactly what I’m talking about. You may not like it, but you know it and, therefore, you're left without an excuse.
